Atheists (I know, I'm calling you out, but this is legitimately posed to you and about your... whatever you wanna call atheism), I was wondering whether you have arrived to your position based on an opposition to the common description of God, which is often based on a false/misleading understanding - as well as religion (not to deliberately juxtapose the two), or are rejecting the existence of God - even as a philosophical concept - completely.
To elaborate, allow me to more fully elaborate on the being of "God."
Firstly, I must begin by presenting you with the fundamental premise behind both philosophy and science: reason is capable of understanding the universe (without this understanding, science and philosophy would have no basis for providing an understanding of the universe). This explanation as to why the universe can be understood by reason is twofold. One, the universe behaves in a pattern, and two, the mind has been developed its entire life in that pattern, such that it is essentially a microcosm of the universe (an echo or miniaturized version of the universe).
Now, if we consider the human mind, it is, in its basic part, a pattern, composed of the interactions between thoughts, ideas, and memories. If you had two minds, who, for their entire life, shared the same thoughts, ideas, and experiences (as in absolutely identical - in every way), the two minds would just be duplicates of each other, and you'd have two versions of the same mind. Now, this pattern exists in reality (which is to say it requires nothing but its own existence to exist), however, it can only be presented in the physical world through actualization (the synaptic firings of your brain and the chemical reactions therein). Now, because the mind is a microcosm of the universe, the universe functions in the same way, just on a much larger scale; people, planets, forces, and everything acts together to express a pattern which exists in reality but must be actualized. Therefore, the universe can be considered to be a mind of its own, even though it is not in any way experiencing consciousness as we understand it (much like a computer or an animal; both which have minds we cannot comprehend). Because our minds are part of this mind of the universe (our minds actualize part of it), we exist within the universe, and, therefore, the universe's mind is greater than our own, as it is more than we are.
As well, however, there is something larger than the universe: that which created it. In order for the universe to exist, it must pull its existence from something, and, therefore, the amalgam of existence - the source of all being - would contain the universe within itself. With the being of the universe, therefore, it would contain the mind of the universe, and, would, therefore, have a mind. As well, since this mind is that which all reason attempts to understand, it would follow that the mind has reason. As well, the universe obeys certain laws (both physical and philosophical), and these laws are never broken (because that's what "law" means). Therefore, it can be said to have a will as well: the will to carry on the pattern... to exist. Now, because personhood is composed of will and reason, this mind can be seen as being a person.
This person - the one who created everything and possesses the mind of the universe (order) - would, of course, be God by definition.
So my question is do you disagree with the philosophy just expressed, or with religions who add their own flavors and interpretations of that philosophy (or both, of course)?
Update:Shawn: Actually, God is existence itself. God doesn't so much exist as he is existence. He didn't need a creator because he's just pure existence. I will agree that reason, since it only applies to universe, cannot extend into full comprehension as to how or why this is possible, though, as the universe existed (causally - not temporally) after God, and, since our reason can only perfectly extend up to the universe, God, being outside the universe (in a sense), is not bound by reason, and, therefore, doesn't have to make sense.
In fact, Tertullian, a theologian, taught that, if you're beliefs (about Catholicism, of course) make perfect sense, you're a heretic. A slightly ironic, but the meaning behind it is clear; God is not bound by reason, being greater than the universe.
Update 3:I can see the main issue here is the redefinition of the word "mind"
It is not a mind in the human sense, most definitely. As far as you conceive a mind to be, as far as you consider how you think, it is in no way a mental thing. However, let's work backwards here, and consider what the human mind is. If it weren't for the fact that you are reading this as a mind, the concept of a mind would be totally insignificant. Electrons move from one point to another. Big whoop. Lightening has more effect on the universe. However, something about how these electrons move, the interactions between themselves and your brain matter cause your mind to be actualized. The pattern of their interactions exists independent of the brain, just as the Fibonacci sequence exists even if no one writes it down. This is all the mind is; a specific pattern of interactions. Now, like I said, the human mind is a microcosm of the universe (this is the only way the human mind can comprehend the uni
Copyright © 2024 Q2A.ES - All rights reserved.
Answers & Comments
Way too much philosophy and zero science, except for the use of the word "science". What we call "Laws" in science are not unbreakable rules but explanations of consistent observations and most of them have exceptions depending on the circumstances. For example, quarks will pop into existence randomly, with no cause, rhyme or reason.
There is no reason to suspect that the "mind" is a microcosm of the universe, nor does the universe "behave" in any way like a "mind" or even a simplistic form of life. This is where the "too philosophy, no science" comes in, you have no evidence to back your arguments and apparently do not understand what we know about the universe.
Edit:
To be clear, it is not the idea of a god that I object to, just that there is no evidence that suggests anything like a god, either as defined by any religion or by your attempt to redefine what is commonly thought of as a god by the majority of those believing in some sort of god.
You're using a lot of words to say God exists. In your own argument, saying that there is something larger than the universe and that is the being that created it, then what created the being that supposedly contains the universe. You say that in order for the usiverse it must pull it's existence from something but does this not apply to God also. If you want to know how the universe was created then look no furthur. Just read on.
I will quote here "At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe."
You were doing fine right until you assumed this universe needs a creator of some sort. Basically from there on it's a lot of assumptions and word play but no real connection to reality anymore.
You're also equivocating. The mind needs a physical presence yes, but that doesn't mean that anything outside it can be called a mind.
Calling physical laws a will to carry on is just begging the question and wordplay.
Btw this concept you describe is essentially pantheism.
/edit You concept of a mind I don't agree with. What we call a mind is the representation of our body by our brain interacting with the world around us. What we call thoughts and consciousness is merely the mind's reflection of what our brain does (any lab with an fmri scanner can show you that our brain finishes decisions and thoughts seconds before our consciousness is even aware of it). So yes it's all physical, but also an emergent property of a brain interacting with it's environment (or in technical terms, the input from our senses) and a need to separate what it influences directly and what indirectly.
A universe-mind has no outside to communicate with. Yes there can still be structures of a sort but there is no need for a concept of self to differentiate your entity with the outside world if you are all that exists.
I disagree. The universe is not God. The universe doesn't have to have a reason to exist because inanimate objects don't have minds. there is absolutely no evidence that humans have souls. and if the universe had a mind, that also means it would have to be like any other organism on this planet that has a mind. all organisms on this planet that have a mind can: communicate, reproduce, receive energy from food. this list could go on. and the last time i checked, the universe has never acted like an animal, never mind a person.
Imagine three boats in a stormy sea. Each boats spring a leak. Boat #1 Gives up and figures there is nothing to be done to save self. Boat #2 The person in this boat, just sits there and prays to God for a miricle. Boat #3 the person is praying to God for help and meanwhile ..with a pail is taking water from the bottom of the boat and dumping it back in the sea. Which person has the better chance to be sucessful. I would say #3 He is praying to God and he is proatvie considering the issue at hand. Thus...God takes care of those who are in motion. This isn't to say that God can't help a paralyzed person because they can't move. In this case the help would be more mental and emotional. Choice #1 to Pray for help, but not want out of bed or unwilling to participate in Physical Therapy. Choice #2 The other choice is to be willing to be open & cooperative even willing to make an effort to do as the doctors recommend. Also praying to God. Godd may give a gift of joy and take away the fear of physical therapy. The joy is a progressive thing. With the help of God, this person just might experience miricles in the future. I hope that makes sense
Way too many assumptions there. And even if I bought into it, I don't see how it would have any bearing on my life. I'm stuck with the "laws" of the universe whether or not a god willed them.
God is for failured and uneducated people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iCXI7W4Fqc
i dont feel like reading that whole thing